Abdul Ruzibiza na Servilien Manzi Sebasoni kuri BBC tariki 12 ugushyingo 2005

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Reka rero mbanze mpe ijambo Ruzibiza utubwire impamvu zatumye uhitamo kwandika kino gitabo.

Ruzibiza: Mu by’ukuri nashakaga kwandika ku bintu bine kugirango abantu babashe kumva nibura iyo ntambara yarwanywe itagira amateka itagira aho yanditse, izwi muri génocide gusa, izwi mu bwicanyi gusa. Ubwo rero ingingo ya mbere:

1. Nashakaga kwandika ku ntambara nanjye ubwanjye nagiyemo kuva itangira, FPR ikaba yari mu bubundi buryo bwose bwa politike bwo gukemura ibibazo hagati ya Leta y’u Rwanda n’impunzi zari ziri hanze ndetse n’abanyarwanda bandi bari mu gihugu hagati; kuburyo nta indi nzira yari igishoboka mu by’ukuri icyo gihe uretse gukoresha intwaro. Nanjye rero nagiye muri iyo ntambara mbikuye ku mutima mbishaka;

2. Icyakabiri nashatse kwandika ni ku kintu bise génocide mu ndimi z’amahanga cyangwa itsemba-bwoko mu kinyarwanda, njyewe nanabyita irimbura-batutsi ryarimbuye abatutsi benewacu, ni ibintu bizwi igice, ni ibintu bizwi amahushuka. Nanjye nashatse gutanga umuganda wanjye. Ntawabasha kuvuga yuko nakwandika byose ibisobanura génocide ngo mbishobore, ariko nibura ibyo nabonye nibura bifite isura ya gisilikare; nibura bifite bifite isura y’intambara, nibura ku ruhande narindi mo.

3. Hanyuma icya gatatu nashatse kwandikaho ni ikibazo cyashakuje cyaneeee, kigendanye n’iyicwa ry’umuprezida wategekaga u Rwanda witwa Habyarimana Yuvenali. Habyarimana gupfa. Habyarimana gupfa kwe mu by’ukuri Habyarimana yapfuye ari umwanzi w’Inkotanyi nanjye yari umwanzi wanjye. Ariko ibyabaye ku rupfu rwe mugupanga kumwica, mukumwica ubwabyo byabyaye amafuti yakongeje génocide, iratangira. Njye nemera yuko génocide abashakaga kuyikora n’ubundi babishakaga; ariko babonye urwitwazo. Urwo rwitwazo rero rwabaye ibanga rukagirwa ubwiru imyaka ikaba ibaye cumi n’umwe, nashatse kwandikaho nibura bikeya nabashije kumenya, kugirango abashakashatsi babishoboye, kugirango inkiko mpuza-mahanga zibishoboye igihe zizabasha kumenyera uko kuri kose nibura zo zizamenye nibura icyateye iyo génocide gutangira kuri iyo taliki.

4. Icya nyuma nashatse kwandikaho umuntu yabona mu gitabo cyanjye cyose kuko ari kinini ni ukuntu FPR nanjye nabayemo, ni ukuntu akazu kayiyubatsemo hejuru gakora ibishoboka byose kugirango ibyo bintu byose bitazapfa bimenyekanye. Kagakora ibishoboka byose kugirango ibyo bikomeze bibe ubwiru. Kagakora ibishoboka byose kugirango ntihagire umunyarwanda cyangwa amahanga cyangwa abacitse ku icumu ubwabo cyangwa n’abo baregwa génocide ubwabo ntihazagire n’umwe uzamenya iryo pfundo ry’icyo kibazo.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Urakoze cyane bwana Ruzibiza. Ngirango Sebasoni urabyumvise uburyo abidondaguye mu buryo bune kandi numvise yuko wowe iki gitabo umaze kugisoma inshuro ebyiri ndetse zose ukaba umaze kucyumva. Ibingibi urabivugaho iki?

Sebasoni: Igitabo naragisomye koko ariko byarangoye kucyumva, nicyo cyatumye nagisubiramo. Icyo gitabo usanga umwuka wacyo, navuga umutima wacyo ari urwango rw’umuntu witwa Pawulo Kagame. Sinshobora kubaza Ruzibiza ngo mwapfuye iki, kuko urwo rwango rugaragara Kagame akigera ku rugamba. Mu by’ukuri bataranamumenya bamuziho ibintu by’amabwirwe, noneho nkibaza impamvu kuva ku mpapuro za mbere kugeza ku mpapuro za nyuma, niba kirimo urwango rungana rutyo nti iki gitabo ni nde uzacyemera. Ikindi n’uko Ruzibiza asa n’utasobanukiwe neza n’inshingano Inkotanyi zihaye. Inkotanyi zashakaga kubohora igihugu, ariko ntizashakaga gutabara buri muntu wese mu Rwanda, buri mututsi wese uri mu kaga aho ariho hose. Kubohora igihugu byashoboye gufasha abatutsi ku buryo burambye. Gutabara abatutsi bari mu kaga muri génocide hirya no hino byari gukiza bamwe na bamwe, ariko ngirango Inkotanyi zajyaga gutsindwa génocide igakomeza kurushaho, ndetse bagatsemba n’utwasigaye ubungubu.

Ruzibiza:

Icya mbere na mbere mbanza kuvuga ngomba kugarukaho kugirango hatagira n’uzanyumva nabi ni ikintu avuze kandi kinakomeye, wagirango ni stratégie yafashe yo kugirango ansenyere igitabo, cyo kuvuga yuko kuva mu ntangiriro kugeza mu mperezo hagaragara mo urwango kuri Kagame nk’umuntu. Kagame ubwe ari mu Bubiligi yaravuze ngo ntananzi no kumenya. Ariko kuvuga ko Kagame atanzi noneho naba mwangira iki? Ese nakwanga uwo ntazi? Nta n’ubwo nanamwanga mu by’ukuri. Ahubwo njyewe icyo nabasha kuvuga n’uko mu bantu bose ibyo babashije kumenya byibura nk’ibyo namenye, iyo aba ari undi muntu ugira urwango, iyo aba ari undi muntu ushaka gukabiriza mu kwanga umuntu, yakwanditse bibi kurutaho akanatukana ndetse. Ntacyo ibi bipfana n’urwango na gato na gato na gato nanditse amateka.

Ngize amahirwe yuko Sebasoni ubwe abyivugiye yuko gutabara abatutsi umwe umwe ukwe cyangwa benshi uko bagiye batuye mu gihugu bitari biri mu nshingano za FPR. Ibyo rero aramutse abivuze gutyo, aho rwose turahuza wagirango yamfashije kucyandika.

Ikindi rero njyewe uko nabisobanuye mu buryo bw’igitabo, uwampa amahoro wese yabyumva kuko nasobanuye urugamba, navuze intambara. Ariko igikuru n’uko mubyo nerekanye, mu ma karta nashushanije mu makuru yose natanze nerekanye uko twagombaga gutabara abantu ariko ntibigeze batabarwa. Nerekanye nk’umujyi wa Kigali wonyine warimo abasilikare ibihumbi 12. Ariko uyu munsi ugashyingurwamo abantu ibihumbi 250, kuko abasilikare ibihumbi 12 b’abakommando bazanywe no gutabara abantu barimo barimo bashira. Bakoraga iki amezi atatu yose kugirango hagwe ibyo bihumbi byose. Nasobanuye ukuntu hari ama prefegitura arenga atandatu atarigeze atabarwa na rimwe intambara irinda irangira.

Donc ni ukuvuga nk’uko Sebasoni yabyivugiye, kwari ugufata ubutegetsi bagafata (?) igihugu. Kandi mu guhaguruka FPR yatangaje yuko ikibahagurukije ari ukujya guhagarika ubwicanyi. Nta contradiction wumvisemo ahongaho wa munyamakuru we?

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: None Bwana Sebasoni, mwari mufite imigambi yo gufata ubutegetsi?

Sebasoni:

Ubutegetsi? Iyo uri mu gihugu udafite ubutegetsi, cyane cyane muri twe ntacyo ushobora kugeraho. Ikintu Ruzibiza asa n’uwirengagiza ni ijambo namubwiye kandi ry’ingenzi: Kubohora igihugu byashoboye gufasha abatutsi kuburyo burambye. Naho gutabara buri muntu mu karere aherereyemo byajyaga gutabara bamwe na bamwe gusa. Iyo umuntu rero, n’abasilikare iyo badashoboye byose, babanza ibya ngombwa.

Ntabwo nshobora kuvuga nka Ruzibiza, nk’uko avuga ku rupapuro rwa 354, ngo njyewe ndi umusilikare, ngo nzi stratégie. Stratégie ni uburyo bwo kuyobora abasilikari no kuyobora intambara ngo kandi ndabyubaha. Amaze kuvuga ibyo akagira ati: iyo twabaga turi ku murongo hakagira ujya hirya no hino hanyuma abantu be bagapfa yarahanwaga. Ibyo ngibyo ni imigenzereze ya gisilikari, ngirango nabyo ni stratégie ikomeye cyane. Naho iyo inkotanyi zitabara umuntu wese ubabara hirya no hino nta kintu zajyaga kugeraho.

Kubohora igihugu byashoboye gufasha abatutsi ku buryo burambye. Byatumye n’Inkotanyi zitsinda intambara, noneho zigeze ku butegetsi zihagarika génocide n’itsemba-bwoko kuburyo burambye. Naho ubundi gutabara umwe n’umwe hirya no hino n’ubwo ntazi stratégie nka Ruzibiza, ngirango byajyaga kuba ari ibintu bitabaho mu buryo bayobora intambara.

Ruzibiza:

Njyewe Sebasoni sinzi niba turimo tujya n’impaka kuko ndumva tuvuga bimwe; kuko esprit nanditsemo igitabo uko ibivuga nanjye niko mbivuga. Njyewe navuze yuko FPR itigeze igira gahunda yo gutabara abatutsi, ariko nyamara uyu munsi bayita umucunguzi w’abatutsi. Icyo ni kimwe; iyo ni n’ingingo inakomeye.

Icya kabiri: murebe imidali bose biyambitse y’uko bahagalitse génocide.

Icya gatatu urebe ngo kujya gutabara umututsi umwe umwe umwe. Ntabwo FPR…nanjye ndi umusilikare njye ndabizi. D’ailleurs nabasabye ko bazana abasilikare ngo abe ari bo tujya impaka kuri ibi bintu banga kubazana. Ntabwo rero FPR yigeze igira umugambi wo gutabara abatutsi, (….mot indistict??) irabivuga, niko byagenze ko; ibyo nakwita stratégie nyine, none se byakabaye ari impaka none akaba nta mpaka turimo tujya! Ntacyo nagombye gusobanura ahubwo nabarangira ngo muzasome mu gitabo cyanjye.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Ariko mbere yuko twimukira ku kindi kibazo Ruzibiza nagirango nkubaze aho ngaho. Ubushize tuvuga iki kibazo baratubwiye bati Ruzibiza arashinyagurira abantu FPR yabashije kurokora.

Ruzibiza:

Ndashaka kukubwira yuko abantu bakeya babaririwa ku ntoki babashije gutabarwa muri iriya génocide ni abaaasanzwe ku nzira aho inkotanyi zaciye. Ikindi kintu navuga kinakomeye kandi na Sebasoni yavuzeho ngo strategie ngo kuri page 354 yavuze, icyo nacyo kirakomeye cyane kuko nahereye kera mvuga ko batubujije gutabara abatutsi twari tubishoboye. Agisubiyemo nacyo ndishimye cyane.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Ruzibiza ndagirango nkubaze iki kibazo: Uremeza mu gitabo cyawe ndetse n’ubungubu wabyemeza yuko iyo indege ya Habyarimana itaza kuraswa, uremeza yuko itsemba-bwoko ritari kuba?

Ruzibiza:

Itsemba-bwoko ryagombaga kuba. Ahubwo ntiryagombaga gutangira ku italiki zirindwi z’ukwezi kwa kane. Donc guhanura indege, kwica Habyarimana byatumye bucya ritangira. Ariko na none icyo ntandukanira ho na propagande ya FPR, n’uko bemeza yuko hariho gahunda y’igihugu cyose yo kurimbura abatutsi bose, hatagira n’umwe usigara. Ibyo simbyemera.

Icyo nemera nuko hariho ubwicanyi nakwita génocide njyewe kuko bwari bugambiriye kwica abatutsi bukabamaraho mu mujyi wa Kigali. Ahandi hose byasabaga imbaraga nyinshi, kujya kubyumvisha abaturage, kujya kubatera ubwoba ngo babyitabire, kujya kubashyira imihoro n’imbunda, kujya kubahagarikira mu bwicanyi, ibyo byose donc ibishobora kubamobiliza, kubexcita, kubashyushya kubatsirishya (??) ngo babikore. Ariko mu mujyi wa Kigali ho byarashobokaga.

Sebasoni:

Ruzibiza aribeshya iyo agira ngo turavuga rumwe! Ikintu nashatse kumwumvisha n’uko abasilikare, iyo bagiye ku rugamba, iyo bagiye kurwana, n’ubwo ntazi stratégie yenda nka we, ntabwo ari Croix Rouge. Inkotanyi ntabwo zari Croix Rouge; zashakaga gukiza abanyarwanda kandi si abatutsi gusa, zatabaraga abanyarwanda bose. Ni ukuvuga ko Inkotanyi zari zifite inshingano zo gukora igikorwa kireba kure, noneho na génocide ntizongere gushoboka mu Rwanda. Biri no mu nshingano z’umuryango FPR Inkotanyi. Naho indege ya Habyarimana siyo yatangiye génocide. Arabizi aho yari arihose, yari azi ko génocide yatangiye kera. Mu Bigogwe, indege ya Habyarimana yari itaragwa. Hirya no hino mu Rwanda, i Nyamata kenshi, kandi rero nawe arabivuga mu gitabo cye. Ikintu kigoye mu gitabo cya Ruzibiza n’uko ibyo usomye ku rupapuro rumwe usanga bidahuye no ku rupapuro rukurikiraho.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Arakubajije ngo vuga ibyo ari byo.

Sebasoni: Yewe, ndabyumva rwose ko yababaye, twese twarababaye. Ariko baca umugani mu kinyarwanda ngo: “Umutima usobetse amaganya ntusobanura amagambo”.

Ruzibiza: Ni abivuge nyine

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Ruzibiza mbere y’uko abivuga nanjye ndagirango nkubwire kuri page ya 243 mu gitabo cyawe, uvuga yuko ku italiki ya gatandatu z’ukwezi kwa mbere, aribwo missiles zo kurasa indege ya Habyarimana zakuwe muri Uganda zijyanwa mu Rwanda, ku Mulindi. Hanyuma kuri page ya 232 ukavuga ko umugambi wo kurasa Habyarimana wacuzwe ku Mulindi ku italiki ya 31 z’ukwezi kwa gatatu. Aho hose hari muri 94’. Ibi bintu bihura gute n’ukuntu umugambi wo kumurasa ucurwa mu kwa gatatu missiles zikaza mu kwa mbere?

Ruzibiza:

Niba washatse ko dusoza cya kibazo twabanjirijeho mbere reka ngisoze ngira nti Sebasoni avuze ijambo yuko FPR itagombaga gukora umurimo humanitaire ko itari Croix Rouge mu kibazo kigendanye no gutabara abatutsi. Nkurikije uko mbyubumvise, nkurikije uko nabyanditse kandi bikaba binahuye n’ubwo anyigurukije ngo ntabwo tuvuga bimwe neza neza, n’uko njyewe njya gutangira intambara yindi twatangiye, twabwiwe ko tugiye guhagarika ubwicanyi. Niyo ngingo yari iduhagurukije. Niyo matangazo yari kuri Radio Muhabura, niyo matangazo yajyaga muri l’ONU, nibyo byabwirwaga Roger Boo Boo, nibyo byarwiga Dallaire, nibyo byabwirwaga Nations Unies yuko niba itsembabwoko ridahagaritswe, FPR ijyanywe no kurihagarika; igiye gutabara abicwa. None umuvugizi wa FPR, umujyanama mukuru, inararibonye, avuze ko FPR itagombaga gukora akazi nk’aka Croix Rouge cyangwa aka humanitaire ko kujya gutabara abantu. Icyo ndakirangije ndumva tukirangije.

Ibijyanye na missiles nabyo rero: ndagirango dutandukanye …..Igisirikare cya APR cyari kimeze nk’ishami rya NRA. Ingabo za APR zarimo agashami k’igisirikare cya Uganda. Ni ukuvuga ngo amasasu yazaga mu Rwanda ku ruhande rwa APR kimwe n’uko yajya Gulu muri Uganda. Ibikoresho byose twabihabwaga n’ingabo za Uganda. Kuba rero missiles n’amasasu n’imbunda byarinjiye mu kwezi kwa mbere umugambi ugacurwa mu kwezi kwa gatatu, ntabwo missiles zazanywe byanze bikunze no kuzarasa indege ya Habyarimana imwe. Kuko niba haranaje n’enye, yarashwe n’ebyiri gusa. Kandi ku Mulindi hahoraga imbunda imwe nibura irinda ikirere cyaho. Nta contradiction na gatoya irimo. Ahubwo se uwo mugambi nanavuga gute ko wanacuzwe icyo gihe ahubwo ko uwo munsi aribwo habaye inama yo kubyemeza burundu. Ko amaperereza yaramaze gukorwa byarangiye noneho umwanzuro ufatwa. Ntabwo ariho igitekerezo cya mbere na mbere cyo kwica Habyarimana, … ntabwo aribwo cyari kibaye!

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Sebasoni FPR muraregwa ko ari mwebwe mwanuye indege ya Habyarimana, muracyabihakana.

Sebasoni:

Ntabwo ari ubwa mbere ….Urumva se … kurega ntabwo ari ubwa mbere biba, biba kenshi. Ariko tugitegereje ni icyemezo cyabyo, kandi icyemezo kigaragara.

Uzi neza ko bavuze uburyo bwinshi cyane hari n’abageza ku buryo burindwi. Muri abo barindwi bashobora kuba barishe indege za Habyarimana hakazamo Inkotanyi. Hari abantu badakunda FPR Inkotanyi bagize bati ahantu barasiye indege, n’ahantu Inkotanyi zari ziri. Kugirango uve aho Inkotanyi zari ziri ugere aho bayirasiye ni ibintu bidashoboka. Hanacaga (indistinct?) abantu benshi: Hari abasirikare ba Habyarimana, jhari abasirikare b’abafransa, yewe hari n’Ababiligi, n’uwo munsi muri uwo mugoroba indege imaze kugwa, nibo batekereje bwa mbere. Nasomye nitooonze icyo gice aho Ruzibiza avuga ku kuraswa kw’indege ya Habyarimana, ndibaza ahantu yari aherereye kuko ntabwo bigaragara neza mu gitabo cye.

Ruzibiza: Mu gitabo cyanjye nanditse amakuru yose nabashije gukusanya ajyanye n’iyo ndege kuko sinshobora kuba ahantu hose nk’umuyaga.

Sebasoni: Yarabivuze ko ari amabwirwe.

Ruzibiza:

Buretse gato ntumvangire! Ntabwo aho ndimo kuvugira ahangaha, uravigira mu Bubiligi ndavugira mur Norvège turi i Buraya. Umuntu wiyita umutanga-buhamya mu rukiko n’uko ou bien aba yarabonye, cyangwa aba yarumvise, cyangwa byombi. Njyewe rero imirimo nakoraga muri Kigali yambashishije kubon ibyo nabonye, yambashishije kumva ibyo numvise, kuburyo ubuhamya natanze nibwira yuko ari ubuhamya nyine. Ibyo nakoraga bindi nabyo rero, umurimo naba narahakoraga, ibyo ngibyo byaba ari umurimo w’abapolisi ntabwo byaba ari umurimo w’itangaza-makuru

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Reka dukomeze duhe ijambo Sebasoni akomereze ahongaho. Sebasoni wari urimo uzamuka uvuga ku kibazo cyerekeranye n’iperereza ry’indege yaguye ya Habyarimana, ese noneho u Rwanda rushobora kwemera ko amahanga cyangwa se abantu batabogamye bashobora gukora iperereza koko hanyuma FPR ikabyemera baramutse bayishatse.

Sebasoni:

Icyambere mbanza kugusubiza n’ikintu cyoroshye rwose byasabwe na Ministre wa Leta y’ubu ngubu yuko ikigo gishinzwe indege gishinzwe indege cyakora iperereza. Bacyita Organization de l’Aviation Civile. Kandi n’undi wese ushatse yakora iperereza. Kandi rero wibutse neza, habaye za rapports nyinshi cyane, muri izo za rapports harimo ingingo yerekeye iyo ndege. Kugeza ubungubu, ntawari wemeza uko iyo ndege yaguye. Kandi rero wumvise neza ibyo Ruzibiza akubwiye, ngo ibintu bye birimo ibice bibiri, ubuhamya bwe .Ngo hari ibyo yabonye, ngo hari ibyo yumvise. Niba numvise neza, ibyerekeye indege ni ibintu yumvise, ntabwo rero ashobora kubihamya. ….

(aha Ruzibiza yashatse kunyomoza Sebasoni ariko umunyamakuru asaba Ruzibiza kumureka akarangiza) …ibyo wiboneye n’ibyo wumvise n’ibyo wumvise mu kinyarwanda bita amabwirwe ntabwo bifite uburemere bumwe.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Ruzibiza, umbabarire gato ndagirango mbere y’uko usubiza ndagirango nkwibutse kuri page 209 mu gitabo cyawe urebe hasi ahajya kurangira uvuga ko CDR yandikiye urwandiko Habyarimana na Uwilingiyimana Agatha, urwandiko ruvuga yuko babasaba kwegura ku mabanga yabo niba ntacyo bakoze ku bwicanyi bwakorewe abahutu muri zone tempon. Ese abantu basabaga Habyarimana Kwegura, amakuru avuga yuko noneho ashobora kuba aribo bakoze umugambi wo kumwica, byo babikubwiye wabyemera?

Ruzibiza:

Hari ama theories n’amwe ntazemera na rimwe, ntashobora kwemera n’uwayantera mu rushinge, kuko bwo reka mbibwire Sebasoni nongere mbimusubiriremo, ibya CDR ndaza kubigarukaho mukanya:

“Ibyo mvuga by’uko Habyarimana yarashwe n’abasirikare babiri b’Inkotanyi ni amakuru nahagazeho! FPR bakaramuka isanga mbeshya, nabantukanye, nabamparabikanye cyangwa nsebanije, nta kindi yakora uretse kujya mu rukiko”.

Kuko mvuga inkuru nahagazeho. Ninkubwira n’ubwo iyo nama naba ntarayigiyemo ku Mulindi kuko ntari ndi yo, ariko ndakubwira yuko Rocket iva mu mbunda ikarasa indege ya Habyarimana narayirebaga. Wajya rero kuri Bagosora wajya ku Babiligi wajya kuri CDR ibyo ngibyo ni ibibazo bindi njyewe nziko ntashaka no kumva mu matwi yanjye kubera yuko iyo bigiyemo bisangamo ibindi.

Icyo nshaka kuvuga ni iki rero? CDR kuba yaratangarije Habyarimana ko ngo bashaka ko yegura, mbese bisa nk’aho bashaka kuvuga ko hariho nk’intagondwa zabonaga yatanze byinshi kuburyo agomba kwicwa maze zigasigara zikora génocide nk’uko benshi banabivuga, uba unjyanye muyindi hypothèse itandukanye n’ibyo navugaga mu kanya.

CDR ryari ijwi rya Habyarimana mu by’ukuri. Gutangaza yuko bamwamaganye gutangaza yuko bagize gute ni ikinamico! Izo ntagondwa rero kuvuga yuko zivuze ko zimwamaganye ko ntacyo yakoze ku bwicanyi bwabereye muri Kirambo ( ….words indistincts) n’ahandi hose, ibyo ngibyo ni ibisanzwe, ni nk’uko n’ubu ngubu, FPR yashobora gushyiraho akaradiyo kazajya kayivugira byayikomeranye. Kandi nta n’ubwo ntekereza ko CDR kugiti cyayo yari ishoboye kwica Habyarimana ku giti cyayo ku giti cyayo ntabyo yari ibashije.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Ruzibiza, uravuga ko ubwicanyi bwakurikiye ihanurwa ry’indege ye Habyarimana ndetse na mbere yahoo, ndetse mu gihe cy’itsemba bwoko na nyuma yabwo, ngo hakozwemo itsemba-bwoko ry’abatutsi ndetse n’iry’abahutu wadusobanurira ibyo bintu uko byagenze?

Ruzibiza:

Bwana munyamakuru icyo kintu kiranagoye cyane kuko ni naho umutego abantu benshi bibaza ngo waba uri, ko naba ndimo ngerageza gushaka kuzana …kwemeza ya matheories ya double génocide, ko naba nshaka gupfobya itsemba-bwoko ryakorewe abatutsi n’ibindi n’indi.

Ntabwo mu by’ukuri mukuvuga ko habaye ibikorwa bya génocide yakorewe abatutsi n’iyakorewe abahutu mba nshaka kuringaniza ibintu bibiri kuri niveau imwe, kugirango bisibane cyangwa kimwe gipfobye ikindi cyangwa kimwe gisibanganye ikindi. Nti bishoboka! Ahubwo, ibyakorewe abatutsi ni génocide ibyo ngibyo yaba umunyarwanda, baba amahanga, n’abayikoze ubwabo barabizi ko ari génocide. Ibyakorewe abahutu nabo mu duce tumwe na tumwe, ndetse bigakomeza ndetse ubutegetsi bwaranafashwe, ndetse bikaba byarashoboraga no kuba génocide yuzuye isesuye iyo haza kugira ikintu gikorwa na FAR cyangwa n’abafransa muri Zone Turquoise, ari nabwo abantu bajyaga kubona ko yari jeoside nyayo koko. Ni amahirwe bagize mu by’ukuri. Ibikorwa nabonye, ibikorwa nakozeho ubushakashatsi, ibyo narebesheje amaso, ibyo nabajije bagenzi banjye bari baciye ahandi hatandukanye n’aho naciye, ibyo babonye n’ibyo bakurikiranye nabo n’ubuhamya bampaye, bunyereka ko ibikorwa bakoze njye ku giti cyanjye nta kundi nabyita uretse kubyita génocide.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Sebasoni urabyumvise wowe urabivugaho iki?

Sebasoni:

Ndabyumvise! Ruzibiza aravuga amagamba maremare cyane ntatume umuntu amusubiza. Noneho ndasubiza mu ngingo eshatu.

Icyambere: Ruzibiza, niba adatekereza ko Inkotanyi zarimo abantu b’ibicucu gusa, yari akwiriye kwemera ko, ariko rimwe na rimwe hari ubwo atekereza ko ari ibicucu kuko hari ahantu avuga ko Kagame yafataga imisozi idatuwe n’abantu n’ibishanga, ngo ntashake kurwanya abakora génocide.

(Aha Ruzibiza yamuciye mu ijambo ati: “Ni ko byagenze.”)

Nta nyungu yo kwica Habyarimana yariho ku Nkontanyi, kandi Inkotanyi zabivuze kenshi. Zavuze ko zishaka guhindura ubutegetsi.

Icyakabiri: Iyo Ruzibiza avuga ko Inkotanyi ziciraga abahutu kuko ari abahutu, kandi zikabicira kubamara, umuntu yakwemera ate kandi azi ko hari abahutu bakijijwe n’Inkotanyi. Kandi azi ko Inkotanyi zimaze gutsina, zafatanije n’abahutu gutegeka u Rwanda kugeza ubu.

Ruzibiza:

Kuba nemeza yuko hari ubwicanyi bwakorewe abahutu kandi mu by’ukuri njyewe nita ko ari ubwicanyi nashyira mu kigereranyo cya génocide, ndabivuga mu buryo bukurikira: Ubwicanyi bukozwe bugakorerwa abantu ubahoye ubwok bwabo, ukaba utavanguye abana, abakecuru, abasaza, abarwana n’abatarwana, ukabica ubahoye ko ari ubwoko runaka, ayo mategeko nibaza ko ayazi, génocide niyo politike y’u Rwanda yose ishingiyeho nibaza ko iyo définition ayizi, ubwicanyi nk’ubwo ngubwo ntakundi bwitwa bwitwa génocide.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Mu gusoza Ruzibiza mu nyandiko zawe uravuga ngo kugirango ubashe kwandika ibi bintu wagombye kuva mu bwoko bwawe bwa gitutsi kugirango ubashe gushyira ahagaragara ibyakorewe abahutu. Ariko mu byo wanditse, kandi nawe wari umusirikare, kandi nawe wabaye umusirikare imyaka igera kuri 11, ntabwo nigeze mbona aho wowe muri ubwo busirikare bwawe wandika uti njye nishe aba, njye nakoze ibi.

Ruzibiza:

Igifransa ni ururimi rugoye, mu by’ukuri ushatse guhindura igifransa mu kinyarwanda byagorana. Aho nakavuze “nous” abandi bavuga “on”, aho nakavuze “je” nshyira mu bwinshi nkaba “nous”. Ikindi iyo mvuze “nous” mba mvuze FPR kuko nanjye nari nyiri mo.

Hanyuma ikindi icyo nashakaga kukubwira ugomba gusobanukirwa rwose wa munyamakuru we kandi na Sebasoni acyumve, ntabwo Inkotanyi zari zararemewe kwica. Ahubwo zagiraga mo utu groupes twabigenewe. Utwo tugroupes twabigenewe ni two twakoze icyo nita génocide njyewe. Utwo dukipe rero tw’abicanyi, twahereye ruhande dukushumura mu gihe twebwe twarwanaga, mu gihe twebwe twimwaga uburenganzira bwo gutabara abarimo bicwa, two twabaga twihereranye abandi turimo tubanigagura, tubicira ahantu hatabereye n’intambara. Ngaho Bwisige, ngaho Giti, ngaho Buyoga, ahantu hatigeze habera génocide. Ugasanga niho bahereye ruhande bica abantu bahereye ku kana kugeze ku gakecuru.

Naho uruhare rwanjye imyaka 10 namaze mu gisirikare intambara narwanaga nari ndi mu basirikare bashinzwe umurimo wo kurwana nyine. Ntabwo bigeze bambona mo uwo mwete cyane wo gukunda kumena amaraso y’abantu kuburyo banshira muri ayo makipe y’abicanyi. Mbifitiye ibimenyetso bihagije. Kuko mfite ahantu ijana na hatanu mu gihugu cy’u Rwanda, uvanyeho ku gasozi, ndavuga amashuli, ndavuga Kiliziya, ndavuga imirambo yavanzwe n’indi mirambo, ndavuga aho twasanze abatutsi bishwe ayo makipe akaza kuhaca akica abahutu nabo akabavanga nabo.

Umunyamakuru Felin Gakwaya: Sebasoni, mukurangiza nawe, ibi bintu Ruzibiza yandika, aratanga ibimenyetso, akavuga ahantu, akavuga igihe, akavuga n’abantu n’umugambi w’ababikoze n’ababitekereje n’ababishyize mu bikorwa, ibi bintu kuki mwebwe …

Sebasoni:

Ruzibiza yavuze ko atari umucamanza! Nanjye ntabwo ndi umucamanza, ariko rero ndakomeza gutekereza ko Ruzibiza atasobanukiwe. Ntushobora kurwana intambara ngo urahire ngo nta muntu uzica. Ni byabindi rero byo kwitiranya Inkotanyi na Croix Rouge. Eh! Iyo Inkotanyi zageraga ku musuzo zigasanga Interahamwe zica abantu, ntabwo zashoboraga kuvuga ngo nimuhagarare, nimutwereke impapuro ngo noneho tuvangure, abashaka kwica, abicanyi, n’abatari abicanyi, n’iki… ibyo ngibyo ntibishobora kubaho mu ntambara.

Ruzibiza: Ugiye kubara abaguye mu ntambara mu buryo nk’ubwo ngubwo bwo wasanga ari za miliyoni. Erega njye mvuga ubwicanyi bwakozwe bugambiriwe kandi niko byanditse niko wabisomye.

Sebasoni: Ikibazo nashaka kubaza ariko, akabazo gatoya: Iki gitabo Ruzibiza yakigeneye nde? Ndibaza, niba yarakigeneye abanyarwanda kugirango barusheho kuyobora neza u Rwanda, cyangwa se yarakigeneye abashaka gusenya u Rwanda. Umunsi bagikoresheje nabi abashaka gusenya u Rwanda, Ruzibiza yateganije gukora iki?

Ruzibiza: Ahubwo njyewe nagusaba kukubaza nk’umutegetsi mukuru wo mu Rwanda niba wakwemera ko iki gitabo cyacuruzwa mu Rwanda.

Sebasoni: Ntabwo iki gitabo kibujijwe mu Rwanda.

Ruzibiza: Iki gitabo mu by’ukuri génocide ni icyaha n’ubwo abategetsi ba FPR bashatse kuyigira ikintu cy’umwihariko, ariko ubundi génocide ni icyaha kireba humanité toute entière. Donc ni igitabo kireba abantu benshi. Icyakabiri nagituye abantu b’inzira-karengane, kugirango nibuke ko nibura agahinda bapfanye, ubugome bishwemo, abahohotewe wenda n’ubu ngubu bakaba batararenganurwa, yuko nabo hari ababibuka. Nacyandikiye abarenganijwe, nacyandikiye abatarenganurwa, ..(mots indisticts)….nta nyigisho mbi n’imwe irimo ahangaha. Abagikoresha rero bashaka gutera intambara ku Rwanda, icyo ni ikibazo kibareba ntabwo ari ikibazo kindeba. Njyewe ndareclama justice kuri bose. Hari abagizi ba nabi. Abo bose bamenyeyuko amaherezo ubutegetsi bwiza umunsi bwagiyeho, umunsi amahanga yabahagurukiye, ubutabera buzabaho.

Abatabizi bicwa no kutabimenya.
Nikozitambirwa.